Curse

ump · Mar 29, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Controlling the flag in GvG is very important. If a team manages to hold a flag for more than 2 minutes, then it gains a 10% morale bonus, which is huge. Most teams have a runner dedicated to running the flag. I've done some GvG but mostly as a monk and I wanted to eventually learn how to run a flag as well so I have more options. I suspect it is far more complicated then grabbing the flag from base and running it to the flag stand and capture the stand if you don't already have it, and repeat. When do you blindly run the flag? What do you do if the flag stand is being guarded by the opposing flag runner? What do you do if the flag stand is being guarded by the opposing team? I would like a better understanding of what it means to be a flag runner and how they do their job. Any advise is appreciated.

JR · Mar 29, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

The most difficult task of a flag runner is quite simply keeping track of capture times, for you and your opponent.

For example if you capped at 4:13, and it is now 5:46 and they have yet to cap over you, you have to let your team know. At this point it could well become worth the risk to push up, and hold for the remaining 27 seconds to get morale.

If you capped at 4:13, and they are bringing another flag in at 5:11, the it probably isn't worth trying to hold out as you would have to push up and hold for just over a minute to make it pay off.

Keeping track of cap times also lets you know how much time you have to utilize at the flag stand. If they have just capped, and you cap straight over, then you have a while. You can use this time to run another flag, and keep the advantage of speed over the opposing flagger. Or you can use the spare time to assist your team. This is entirely up to your teams discretion. For example, I mainly play an Emo Air flagger. Against builds with multiple warriors I may well use the time to stay at the stand and throw a few Blinding Flashes/Enervating Charges out, or alternatively just assist on a spike or two with Lightning Orb.

If the opposing flagger is going to kill you, and you can realise this with enough time, you have got to let your team know. On maps such as the Frozen Isle where combat may not be centered around the flag stand you may well need assistance. Giving morale to the enemy team because you failed to tell your own that you were having problems is bad news. If you are clearly having problems, let them know, and let them know what you need to keep running flags. If that means moving your whole team over to the flag stand to stay in the morale race, fine. Just be wary of what the other team is doing.

There are other minor duties you have, particularly on the maps with Catapults.

The standard practice there is for the designated flag runner to take the Repair Kit and stash it by the Guild Lord, whilst someone else runs the first flag. Once they cap, you then pick up the freshly spawned second flag and take it out.

Also, if your team is pushing back the opponent, and you have the time, confer with your team whether it is safe for you to fetch the kit repair their catapult. Having a repaired catapult hanging over your enemies base can severely limit their strategies, and even get you free kills against stupid teams and the odd base NPC. On top of this, if VoD rolls around you have the ability to more easily catapult their NPC's.

It is also partly your duty to be vigilant of the enemies movements. Watch your radar for them sending out sneak gank squads while you are running the flag. Let your team know what the team consists of, if they have a theif, and whether you can handle it.

There's probably more, flag running is a fairly complex job. I'll add to it as I remember, unless someone else gets their first.

icemonkey · Mar 30, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

another part that requires mention is the 1v1. It doesnt happen very often, where you are against the other flag runner or a NPC assasin, but oyu need to know how to win those. Standard runner is an e/mo, ill consider it from taht point.

vs. NPC assasin war
bust out the blinding, start working on him with whatever you have and see if you can get some help. You might want to save strike/charge for when he uses healing signet for extra damage. You can win this one alone, or run away.

vs. Crip shot runner
If you get a blinding on him before it really starts you should be able to murder him, but if he slows you(crip shot or pin down) and then intterupts your blinding you need help fast. Hes prolyl also got poison, either way hes gonna put the hurt down on you, alert your team

vs illusion mesmer
This is up in the air because their bar is not nescessarily set, but i would call for help hes gonna have a lot of degen and probably slow down skills so there will be little chance of running. Depending on the bar these guys can be untoppable 1v1.

vs anotehr e/mo
eh prolly not gonna get anywhere, ignore him alert yer team if hes where he shouldnt be.

overall you need experience facing peopoe in a 1v1 situation like RA or TA, i would practice running around iwth the runner bar and fighting people.

Linkusmax · Mar 30, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

what about vs e/mo water eles?

Patrograd · Mar 30, 2006, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The most difficult task of a flag runner is quite simply keeping track of capture times, for you and your opponent.

.

We enter this into team chat so it is easily referenced

For example, when we cap

Cap 5:30

or when they cap

E Cap 5;45

You often cant do this immediately on cap, just make a mental note of the time and when you get a spare second type it in.

We also like our flagger to tell us over voice once we enter that key period 30 seconds or so before we are due a boost so we can play accordingly

I would say that alot of the time it isnt worth dieing to cap, alot of runners seem to throw their lives away for a pointless cap. Capping the flag *is* important, and occasionally absolutely vital, but it isnt the be all and end all, especially early in the game. You can often give away a morale boost without much damage being done to you strategically. Losing a boost when they already have full morale and all their sigs doesnt matter, but giving away a boost when the enemy have heavy Dp and no rez sigs is clearly a disaster.

Communication is the thing. Flag runners are often assigned to base defence against split teams, and need to be able to give quick, clear information on enemy movements

Warskull · Mar 30, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

The most important thing is to recognize who has the flag and keep track of captures. You need to know if delaying the enemy flagger buys a boost or simply is a wasted effort.

You should also be sure to inform your team every time you are coming in to plant the flag. This way they can protect you when the enemy team tries to kill you.

When running the flag without team support you need to rapidly recognize the situation. Can you disable the enemy hindering you, can you bypass him, can you kill him, or will he kill you? Let your team know the situation too. If you are fairly sure the enemy can kill you let the team know, if you have the situation under control let them know.

banishd · Mar 31, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

You need to be aware of your surroundings, and have the knowledge to make good decisions under certain conditions.
A common mistake i see low rank guilds is have a flag runner who only knows how to run from the flag stand to base and back.
If Your ahead on the Flags, and Your Standing at the stand waiting to overcap, Your doing something wrong.
Timing is important, Calculate exactly how much time it takes to run a flag, Calculate how long it takes the enemy runner to run a flag, and see if you can take advantage of this.
Maybe run off to the side and try and Catapult Him as he runs out
Dual run the Flag and bring the thief go into their base and solo their runner and get a boost.
On Bigger Maps, maybe go around the side and attacking their flag runner,
Usually securing a morale boost or Causing the Enemy to have to fall back for their running resulting in a loss of positioing so your team can push up and gain better ground.
Running the Flags from base to stand is only half of the job of flag running.

CAT · Apr 05, 2006, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Besides remembering cap times, there really isnt much to "explaining" flag running then making important decisions. You are in charge of your own character and you should be doing what is best for the team. Only playing experienced will get you some real knowledge on what you should be doing and when.

SaintGreg · Apr 05, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

We enter this into team chat so it is easily referenced

For example, when we cap

Cap 5:30

or when they cap

E Cap 5;45

Brilliant, I need to start doing this in gvg and on altar battles in hoh. Theres been so many times we have wondered exactly when the morale boost was coming, but could never figure it out exactly.

Dzan · Apr 05, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Another aspect that flag runners deal with is countering 1 man gank squads.

Every now and then the enemy team will send one warrior or one warrior and the thief into your base to kill NPC, and usually the flag runner will have to deal with that. It shouldn't be hard for a guy with BLinding Flash, a ranger with poison and cripple shot, or a water ele to beat a single warrior.

The difficult part though is countering the gank without giving the enemy morale, since you can't run the flag while killing the warrior or ranger. Usually, when this happens it's a good time to push forward and try to kill or delay their runner since they will be down an offensive character (who is in your base.)

Ensign · Apr 05, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by banishd

If Your ahead on the Flags, and Your Standing at the stand waiting to overcap, Your doing something wrong.

This is one of the most patently wrong things I have read on these forums. Top teams go through extra effort to have a player standing at the flag stand waiting to cap back. They double up on flag running to force an opponent into that situation, or to avoid getting caught in that hole. In many matchups our flagger is specifically instructed to do exactly this, to run flags as fast as possible and only linger at the stand if he has a flag in his hand while we have the tower.

Being ahead in the flag race is a significant advantage in any tight match, and it does win and lose games. Don't laugh at it.

Peace,
-CxE

tafy69 · Apr 05, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Its horrible when your against a team thats overcaping you, usually you need to send another guy to run a flag aswell as your flagger so you can catch up.

zoozoc · Apr 06, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

another part that requires mention is the 1v1. It doesnt happen very often, where you are against the other flag runner or a NPC assasin, but oyu need to know how to win those. Standard runner is an e/mo, ill consider it from taht point.

vs. NPC assasin war
bust out the blinding, start working on him with whatever you have and see if you can get some help. You might want to save strike/charge for when he uses healing signet for extra damage. You can win this one alone, or run away.

vs. Crip shot runner
If you get a blinding on him before it really starts you should be able to murder him, but if he slows you(crip shot or pin down) and then intterupts your blinding you need help fast. Hes prolyl also got poison, either way hes gonna put the hurt down on you, alert your team

vs illusion mesmer
This is up in the air because their bar is not nescessarily set, but i would call for help hes gonna have a lot of degen and probably slow down skills so there will be little chance of running. Depending on the bar these guys can be untoppable 1v1.

vs anotehr e/mo
eh prolly not gonna get anywhere, ignore him alert yer team if hes where he shouldnt be.

overall you need experience facing peopoe in a 1v1 situation like RA or TA, i would practice running around iwth the runner bar and fighting people.

Good guide, though i really doubt an e/mo flagger would be able to kill anything besides npcs. Due to the fact that their dmg is very small and 95% of the time the person you are soloing will have a self heal, or else why would s/he attemp to solo you.

JiggyFly · Apr 06, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

You'd be suprised what Orb > Enervating Charge > Gale > Orb > Enervating Charge can accomplish. Especially if you happen to knock down the target while in their Troll Ungent, Healing Signet cast. At the very least you might make them think twice about attempting a 1v1 face-off with you.

Dzan · Apr 06, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoozoc

Good guide, though i really doubt an e/mo flagger would be able to kill anything besides npcs. Due to the fact that their dmg is very small and 95% of the time the person you are soloing will have a self heal, or else why would s/he attemp to solo you.

95% of the time the e/mo flagger has Gale. Heck, I play a water ele runner without Gale and I have no problem killing things one on one.

glenn_rolfe · Apr 06, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

It's for these reasons why you should never restrict flag running to 1 person as your option. On maps like the ice map, 1 v 1 encoutners between flag runners is very common, and you must choose who is better to counter their flag runner 1 v1 to get your advantage.

Dedicating 1 person to flag running is old school

Medion · Apr 09, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I got a question about when to post the first flag.

I saw the Playoffs IQ vs Reno on the Druids map (the one with the mending-water) where they didn't put the first flag for over 2 minutes. Why did they do that? To make sure the first fight was 8v8 and not 7v7?

Dzan · Apr 10, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Whoever captures the first flag is at a disadvantage, since they will be capped over immediately after. That means they have to run back for the second flag, which creates a 7v8 senario at the flag stand. When two teams are more or less equal, a man advantage for a minute or so is pretty huge.

Patrograd · Apr 10, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Being ahead in the flag race is a significant advantage in any tight match, and it does win and lose games.

When we play spike we take the view that as long as we cap within 2 minutes of you then that's fine, we have done what we need to flag wise. Even if you immediately overcap we still have 2 minutes to run another flag. Spike teams can maybe afford to do this because:

1) They have the ability to quickly take enemy flaggers down, preventing enemy caps
2) They are typically stronger with all 8 together, and having the extra man at the stand during the early exchanges can make all the difference
3) Most teams seem to want to split against them, and in such situations the threat which needs dealing with is the enemy team going to the base, not the enemy flag team.
4) Conceding a boost possibly affects teams with quick killing power less than those who are pressure orientated, especially early in the game.

When spiking we have tried both strategies, and it seems clear to us that this relaxed flag running attitude works best for us on most maps in the part of the ladder where we are. When playing as pressure though we do what Ensign says every single time, double flag running ftw.

Ensign · Apr 10, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

I saw the Playoffs IQ vs Reno on the Druids map (the one with the mending-water) where they didn't put the first flag for over 2 minutes. Why did they do that? To make sure the first fight was 8v8 and not 7v7?

Watch what happens about five minutes into the match. We're forced to cap b/c of a distracted Heal Party, they cap over, and we're forced to run immediately. They pressure the flagger early on as he's coming back to recap, beating the energy out of our monks and breaking our backline. Capping first can put you at a significant disadvantage if you aren't prepared to double up immediately - in that particular match, both teams recognized that capping second would be a big advantage and neglected to cap because of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

4) Conceding a boost possibly affects teams with quick killing power less than those who are pressure orientated, especially early in the game.

I've actually found the opposite to be true, that conceding a boost when you're playing spike can be absolutely backbreaking. Not only for the extra health which makes spiking harder, but because it gives the other team back a full clip of sigs to pressure you with. When I'm running spike the critical counter is the number of sigs they have, you have to run them out of sigs before they run you out of energy and break you. A morale boost undoes all that work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

4When spiking we have tried both strategies, and it seems clear to us that this relaxed flag running attitude works best for us on most maps in the part of the ladder where we are.

I believe that - when we ran spike months ago we'd run the flag that way, just in time to maximize time at the stand. The trouble is that at the top of the ladder teams will punish you for that, they'll aggressively pressure your flagger and use your flag situation to break your defense. Now I know that you don't see that happen further down on the ladder, teams aren't very good about it there - but understand that you're getting away with something, you're not smashing them with smart play.

Peace,
-CxE